Running In procedure

[kona]

Just about to rebuild the motor, what is the proper running in procedure. Im thinking about running it in on the carbs and Dizzy before I fit the canems, as I have more control over that setup at this point in time.
How many miles before I can give it some abuse? Do I have to keep it below 3k RPM and not labour the engine? Bearing in mind there is only 1 set of new rings going in, the other 3 cylinders are not being touched, and Im not honing the bore as they are perfect.

[CLUBMANGT]

Be careful about the oil you use for the run in period . Modern oils have components that will stop the rings bedding in properly .

[kona]

Be careful about the oil you use for the run in period . Modern oils have components that will stop the rings bedding in properly .

Mineral oil so?

[GTM Coupe]

Just about to rebuild the motor, what is the proper running in procedure. Im thinking about running it in on the carbs and Dizzy before I fit the canems, as I have more control over that setup at this point in time.
How many miles before I can give it some abuse? Do I have to keep it below 3k RPM and not labour the engine? Bearing in mind there is only 1 set of new rings going in, the other 3 cylinders are not being touched, and Im not honing the bore as they are perfect.

If you are going to all the trouble of rebuilding do it properly, give the bores a hone its qucik and inexpensive, it will give a much better seal to the rings, and replace all 4 piston rings, no point in doing it half arsed at this stage, if one set of rings went the other can't be far away. As for running in or first time start up, use a very basic oil, nothing fancy, prime the engine of oil prior to starting, periods of run in time vary depending on engine build, my race engines got one lap of the circuit before abuse but road engine need longer, I've heard 500 kms but I may be wrong, the other guys might have more info or try Merlin.

[Miniquip]

As above no point changing the rings on one piston...

besides any of the rings that I get always come in a set of four anyway...

As for running in, a bit of a hone and a new set of rings will need minimal running in, in fact just go easy on it i.e. don't rev it over 4,000 or labour it for 50 miles or so, then all should be good...

Always use a decent 20/50 mineral oil in the mini engine (unless its a competition engine) as there are non of modern oils that are suitable for the mini gearbox (engine is more than happy with semi or full synthetics, but the gears simply hate the stuff....). For the competition engines we use Millers 20W50 CTV semi synthetic as it has been specially formulated for the mini gearbox..

Have fun..

[kona]

The reason Im not Honing the Bores is because apart from the fact they look fine, and compression was fine on all the cylinders apart from 4, was, I rang up a engineering shop and was quoted e150 for a hone. IMO thats a joke.

Priming engine of oil I presume I do:

Fill filter
Fill sump
Pour abit down into the pump?

As for coolant how is this approached? Obviously there will be no coolant for abit until the pump picks up?

[The Marcos Graveyard]

As for coolant how is this approached? Obviously there will be no coolant for abit until the pump picks up?

The engine is like a bucket, once you fill the rad with coolant it's all around the engine internals, the pump just circulates it.

[GTM Coupe]

You should still change all 4 sets of rings, just cause you had good compression before on 1 - 3 doesn't mean it will be like that after 1000 kms. This is the reason why you can't buy just one piston ring, you wouldn't change just one brake pad would you, its the same with the rings. I would say 150 euro for a hone is about right, for comparrison try Howard Engineering they do all my work. In the end its your engine thats keeps your car moving so if it were me I would spend the money on the hone and do the job properly.

As for the oil priming you should wind the engine over on the starter until the oil pressure gauge reads correctly or the oil warning light goes off. You will need to disconnect the coil so the engine will not fire.

[kona]

Looks like more money so! I think e150 for a hone is crazy for what it is, however, looks like I'll be spending a bit more now and do all 4 rings. Going to be broke for another month haha.

[Miniquip]

Trust me, get the bores honed... by the time you get the car driven out of the garage the new rings will be screwed otherwise... €150.00 just to hone is crazy, after all it only takes a decent engineering shop 1/2 an hour to hone a block.... I'm getting charged less than that for a boring a block which incidental includes honing it once the boring has been done...

When it comes to priming the oil, take the plugs out.. not only does it make it easier for the engine to turn over, it also takes the compression loading of the bottom end bearings till the pump can get the pressure up... With the limited knowledge you have about getting this done..... sorry but does it even need done, or will a set of rings even cure your problems...?

[kona]

Well, thanks to everybody here for their advice, I kinda knew skimping would be a bad Idea, Im glad I have the new rings ordered but I need ANOTHER piston.
When I took them out #1 Piston had a crack, and #4s ringland basically fell apart in my hands when I took the rings off. Im not happy with the bore on #4, the rest are fine , Im going to hone it myself, I can get a loan of the tool off one of the lads I know.
This failure is after 30,000 ish miles on Powermax Cast pistons, Bit of a joke TBH, car was serviced very regularly and passed the NCT , the mix and timing was waaay off when I bought the car but I sorted that out asap when I got it. Not happy at all. The car was never given beans until oil was warmed up enough. Even then it never saw over 5,500 RPM.

Minis are great craic all toghter, Suprisingly the Gearbox is in great nick

[Merlin]

Kona, if the rings on NO4 have broke up as well then the other two pistons are scrap the reason the pistons have failed like this is detanation caused by over advance ignition at high loads. It is very likley your engine was running on a near standard dizy which is fine with a near standard cam but the cam in your motor was far from standard and so the dizy will not have the right curve dus giving the motor far to much ignition at high loads.
Change all four pistons to omegas or somthing like minispares megas and build the motor right the first time. If you don't you will be pulling it apart in another few months or even sooner to sort these problems!!

[kona]

The Distributor has a Aldon sign riveted to it and on the back has AYM 100 (Ithink Its defo AY****) grinded into it.

I cant find any cracks on the middle two? Altho there is a hell of a lot of carbon or burnt oil on the crowns and down the sides.

I already have a Powermax piston, I need to order another, and Ive already ordered rings which at this stage is too little haha, so you reccomend sticking in forged pistons or just keep with the powermax? I'll have another look at them later.

The crack on #1 is only 2mm running vertically up a space between the 1st and 2nd rings, its hairline, but a crack is a crack.

The Mess on #4 I think was caused by heat as the area is badly burned where they fell apart. The rings on #4 were a mess too, they wernt free to move.

[Merlin]

Ya I would have taugHt that an aldon yellow would have been safe but many not what was you static advance set to,

that type of failure of no4 is 100% det, it however is high speed det and would be almost impossable to here with out det cans so don't beat your self up over just make sure at some Point you get the next motor rolling roaded to make sure your advance curve is not high speed det'ing.
You don't need a forged piston but a good qulity cast piston ie omega or minispares these are both great qulity pistons that will last many many K miles.

If you want kona I will get you block hone correctly by local engineering shop for a lot less than you have been quoted give me a ring this afternoon and I'll arange to collect it from you this week,
rgards
Paul
086 816 0774

[kona]

Thanks for the kind offer paul, how much will I be looking at?, the car has gotten 2k spent on it in the last month between the rebuild parts and canems and all the other random bits i need for the injection. So Funds are getting tight, I'll have to have a look at the cost of all this again as its getting into stupid territory, Id nearly have bought a built engine for that, and not had to go do all this inbetween classes. I was offered a Honing tool yesterday so I might just use that and get it done, the time is running out too, the theses is due in a month.

Im definatley getting it Rolling Roaded after its run in and before I even think of giving it some abuse, not too happy with the detonation, I didnt just take a stab in the dark at it, I contacted the engine maker Minispeed and used what they quoted me (not the first time ive gotten poor service off these) Id have to go through my Emails again but It was quite a high static advance somewhere around 35 deg BTDC.

[keith]

snip.It was quite a high static advance somewhere around 35 deg BTDC.

jaysus! amazed it started at all... as you know, the whole point of adjusting the timing is to have the *flame front* / expansion in the cylinder happen at the right time.
It takes a few microseconds for the spark to ignite the mixture *and* have that build to push the piston back down the bore.
that time-to-expand is about the same all the way through out the rev-range, at full load, so you have to "light the fire" sooner when the engine is running faster, to compensate for the flame which burns at the same rate - which is why ignition advances, controlled with little weights, springs and shaped cam on the distributor shaft, as the rpm increases.
things change at part load, where the cylinder is only partially filled. - but thats another story.

[kona]

It was a pain in the ass to start at the best of times, add in colder weather and the drop in compression when the rings went and I was screwed, The car wouldnt idle under 1500 RPM, but alas thats what the guys who supplied the engine quoted and who am I to question that, I knew it would need a fair bit of advance so I didnt question it, Ill know better from now on
It did however supply me with some good pictures to include in my theses to show the effects of having the wrong set up in a engine.
Still not happy I didnt notice it, i was using octane booster with Lead as the head I have needs it due to the valves. Suppose Ive learned a hell of a lot about it all. Im seriously questioning the wisdom of a 100bhp + A series daily driver, mine failed at 30 K miles, thats not in anyway acceptable.

[keith]

an expensive way to research your thesis.

It's only a 100hp daily driver @ 6200rpm .... . most of the time you only using 25 - 40hp.

I believe its perfectly ok to have a well tuned mini for a daily driver. i think, as Paul mentioned, the set-up of the components is very important and sometimes overlooked. At a minimum it will ensure you get the most out of the build - It will also maximise engine life.. . but then, you don't want to hear that now!

Have you read David Vizard on the subject? this is one of his books,
http://www.amazon.com/Tuning-Engine-Def ... b_title_bk
or look for it in the library.

edit: a D.Vizard book appears to be only available in Laois.
http://www.borrowbooks.ie/searchresult2 ... pe=keyword

[kona]

Yea I have given it a good read, its interesting what he has found,and what he has to say, Im using some of the bits in it as refrences in my theses.
It sure is a expensive way to get there and to be honest If I knew what I know now I probably wouldnt have bothered. But Im definatley investing in Rolling Road time to get the car setup, the good thing about the ecu is that it does away with alot of the mechanical control so it should stay in tune longer.
Still not too happy having to keep ordering parts haha, Next time Im not ordering a thing till Ive the engine fully apart! Thank go the Gearbox was Ok!.

[keith]

.... investing in Rolling Road time ....

there was some talk on Sunday of doing this as a "club day"... clearly not sufficient to do a complete map & set-up for a new build, but perhaps enough to get people thinking about it, for those that tweak!

[kona]

Well Ive to pay for it anyways, so I wouldnt mind going early or whatever and have it set up. Might be a good chance to get a comparison going between the different set ups!